Sex Objects

Kisupure

@i-am-insane Well yeah, but simply admitting that it’s bad doesn’t exonerate anyone.

I’m curious, though, does that mean you are incapable of believing yourself to be attractive?

i am insane

Like… how do I put this, there’s two kinds of attractiveness, I guess. There’s the sexual kind, where some part of your brain says ‘I want to fuck that’, and then there’s the aesthetic kind, which is when you you admire that something is just… built right.

And when it comes to men, those two concept are always divorced to me. I can think, ‘Yeah, this person is a icon of a man’ or something, and the hormones just won’t go for me; at some fundamental level, just the masculine shape doesn’t work for me. So, yeah, if I woke up tomorrow and my trainwreck of a walking corpse suddenly looked good I’d… like, it sure. I might even want to preen about it a bit, but it’d more like someone bragging about their car rather than how hot they are.

Kisupure

@i-am-insane Interesting. That’s exactly how I used to feel about being a hot chick with crushing dysphoria.

i am insane

@kisupure
Huh. I think, on a fundamental level, I’m not really attached to my body as ‘my’ body, if that makes sense. I’ve got a bunch of medical shit happening to me since I was a kid, and it’s easy for me to think of my body as separate from me, and in general not much of it really.

Olo

The incel movement feeds hetmale body self-loathing. “Women can’t be attracted to me! The only reason they would want to be with me is if I had money or power*!”

Or if I were 100-feet tall…

@kisupure said in Sex Objects:

That’s exactly how I used to feel about being a hot chick with crushing dysphoria.

Face it, you were no Jeep Cherokee.

Kisupure

@i-am-insane That makes a lot of sense. I feel like medical dysphoria is probably a super common thing. My partner felt similar when he was going through chemo and still struggles with it.

@Olo Nobody’s perfect

tinyborrower

This is something I’ve thought about before a lot, especially as a queer woman. I’ve gone back and forth between my desire to be much bigger and smaller and the related content I consumed, I think as my own self image has changed. GTS stuff used to be my focus because the thought of being massive was empowering. People wouldn’t question my capabilities.
But now I’ve found comfort in my size - I enjoy being small. In real life, it means when I show up a lot of guys in my field who are a foot taller than me and can’t keep up, I’m more impressive. I used to be annoyed by how often people called me ‘little’, ‘petite’, etc. but it makes me feel more proud of myself. And I guess that’s something I don’t see often in this realm of writing - at least on the kinkier side. Often if SW are strong, it’s to be broken, and as many have expressed, everyone is entitled to their own kinks and views on things - no shame for those who write that way. For me, it’d be nice to see more strong SW who are allowed to stay that way - feel confident in their size and maybe even empower the GT and not be seen as an object first. Maybe some day I’ll have the time and energy to write something for myself to enjoy.

Olo

@tinyborrower I’d definitely want to read a story about someone who is made complete by getting to know a tiny woman.

tiny-ivy

@i-am-insane said in Sex Objects:

@kisupure
shrug
There’s a reason it’s called toxic masculinity, after all. Men aren’t supposed to have ‘feelings’, only pride.

Oh, dear. That phrase never should have escaped the sociology courses it was invented in.

Academic rant incoming…

Sorry if I am misinterpreting your post, but it sounds like you’re saying that masculinity is called toxic by that phrase.

Toxic masculinity is supposed to be a subset of masculinity. The phrase isn’t supposed to suggest that men are toxic. It’s about how men are a victim of the patriarchy, too, just in different ways than women.
Toxic masculinity is, indeed, the traits you’re taught by the patriarchy (including by traditional culture and traditional religions) that reduce you to nothing more than status, violence, and sex. “Boys will be boys.” “Boys don’t cry.” “Suck it up.” “Stop talking about your feelings, what are you, a girl?”
That bullshit. Locker room crap. Dehumanizing to all men.
It was described by sociologists as a thing that men can get past, for their own good, and for everybody’s good, because men more in touch with their feelings, and more confident about themselves as caregivers, would make themselves much happier, and, in theory also reduce the amount of destructive interactions they would have with each other and with women.

It’s really sad that men’s rights activists nowadays are just scumbags who hate women. There was a brief moment in the '80s, around the time this phrase was invented, when men started a men’s liberation movement to try to teach each other to get over this harmful cultural programming. But then the internet came around and ruined that.

What would be an alternative masculinity? A positive masculinity? Great question. I’m sure you have ideas there.

There is a self-help group of men who focus on this a lot, called the Mankind Project. I have a friend who swears by it. There are also some mainstream authors like Michael Ian Black who explore this.

Wow, we get deep here, in the forum about science fiction fetishes.

Olo

@tiny-ivy

I’m sure this sentiment comes from a place of cis privilege, but I have never heard of a positive trait attributed to “masculinity” that couldn’t be more honestly attributed to “adulthood.”

There should definitely be distinct physical aesthetics for male bodies; several, in fact. Appreciating male bodies for their forms and functions should not, however, determine anything meaningful about the people living in those bodies. To claim otherwise is to be a gender essentialist, to restrict a person’s potential based on their (singular) sex.

“Toxic masculinity” is really just “limited humanity.”

Kisupure

@tinyborrower I did the opposite of this with Beast of Bell Island, a jerk who was made a giant against his will and through that experience learned how to be a kinder man. This post has the wheels turning… I may have a crack at this!

@tiny-ivy Yeah it’s a shame what happened to men’s liberation. There were some cool groups. There are still men working on this for sure, and r/menslib is probably one of the biggest communities that uses feminism to heal and interrogate toxic masculinity. But there’s a post there any given week about feeling shame for being a sexual being, and trying not to self-flagellate but unsure how else not to “hurt” women with an “inherently dangerous” male sexuality. (These are scare quotes, I’m not quoting anyone specifically.)

And you’d be surprised! I’ve seen deep discussions about sexuality and gender from the sw community since I first got into it. It’s one of the things I’ve always found really cool.

tinyborrower

@kisupure

Yeah, I’ve read that story before! You’re a fantastic writer. If you ever decide to take a crack at it, I’d love to see it

@Olo

It is weird trying to attribute positive traits to ‘masculinity’ that don’t feel heavily steeped in gender roles. But I think the same could be said of ‘femininity’.

Olo

@tinyborrower said in Sex Objects:

It is weird trying to attribute positive traits to ‘masculinity’ that don’t feel heavily steeped in gender roles. But I think the same could be said of ‘femininity’.

Exactly. Responsible adults are responsible adults, and it has nothing to do with sex or gender.

i am insane

@tiny-ivy
Not really? To agree with what everyone is saying, basically, what I’m saying masculinity, as discussed in the world now, is almost always inherently toxic because there is no other example. The same factors that help inform the dehumanizing view of men in porn, the lack of expressions, or focus on anything that isn’t a dick, ties back to how men, culturally, are still viewed: tough. Or rather, ‘tough’.

You can’t show weakness, you can’t be vulnerable, you can’t feel, so you can enjoy sex, because a man is supposed to want to have sex, but not to extent that you show that you enjoy it! It’s messed up, obviously, but honestly the idea that it shouldn’t be a common phrase is bizarre to me because… well, it’s real. It’s common. It’s how I, and probably every other man to some extent, has been raised, even if there is a some focus on fighting the perception of that is how a man should be now compared to how it used to be.

Talking about this, I’m remembering a short story I read as a kid: a samurai where going up a mountain to get something from a snow spirit, and to impress her, they were standing there, enduring the elements to show how manly they were. They do this until they get coated in ice and die, turning into a statue of ice, and the spirit wanders by the newest statue of dozens, musing how stupid they all are that they just try to become like ice.

The ‘ideal’ man, in a nutshell, is a Terminator (It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever) programmed to act like a person with the core directives of memetic Darwin to drive them: ‘EAT FIGHT FUCK’.

@kisupure said in Sex Objects:

feeling shame for being a sexual being,

That is something that honestly bothers me a lot about my enjoyment of the SW fetish, because so much of it revolves around, well, hurting or depowering women. It’s… not a good look, these days, and even if I had a mind to talk about that kind of thing (laughs forever at the idea of doing that) the reception that this would have alone would be enough to scare me off it.

tiny-ivy

@i-am-insane thank you for your perspective.

It’s strange, the way individual men are socialized in the private sphere by most parents and peers really is destructive and dehumanizing to them as people. The private sphere being how we get along with others and ourselves. Our relationships and emotions, that only we and our friends and family see…

But then there’s How men are traditionally seen in the public sphere, in business and politics. Men still are trusted more as business leaders and political leaders. Even today. Just imagine another woman running for president. That probably won’t happen for a while.
Traits associated with masculinity like logic and assertiveness are still positively viewed by most people for leaders, while traits associated with femininity like emotion and collaboration are still seen as negative for leaders.

No wonder so many men are so obsessed with status. Running a company or being a senator seem to be the only ways to be valued as a man. Whereas women, who are taught from birth to gain their value in the private sphere, from friends and loved ones, can just live happier lives, even if they don’t become as financially successful.

What a fucking mess. As annoyed as I get by my female body sometimes, I really feel like I dodged a bullet by not going through masculine puberty and male socialization as a kid. It looks hellish in an even worse way than what I went through as a “female”. The only way I would feel comfortable getting past a role like that would be shedding gender norms like, well, like a nonbinary person.

The straight male role looks like a collar buttoned so tight it cuts off circulation at your neck, but without the possibility of taking it off at the end of the work day. You slip for one moment, and you’re mocked and put down, even as an adult. I hope you guys can take that too-tight shirt off, one’s masculinity is one’s own to invent. Whatever you like about yourself is your positive side - traditionally masculine or not.