Sex Objects

Olo

It frustrates me to no end to see faceless dude-shaped thing after faceless dude-shaped thing in porn. Men, stop doing this to yourselves. Fucking enjoy yourself for once!

Kisupure

@olo A lot of terfs would like to think I transitioned because I was a misogynist, but joke’s on them, men are PRO at self-loathing without even knowing it. Y’all have a major call of the void kink it’s time to talk about

Olo

@kisupure Nobody has a lower opinion of men than so-called “Men’s Rights Advocates.” So narrow and desolate.

i am insane

@kisupure
shrug
There’s a reason it’s called toxic masculinity, after all. Men aren’t supposed to have ‘feelings’, only pride. Even now, the most common portrayal of a man in any kind of media is a tough guy who doesn’t cry or show weakness.

I’ll note that, again on a personal level, I don’t actually enjoy the male body, so porn that actually shows more of a man actually turns me off, because while a woman feeling pleasure makes me feel pleased, a man… really doesn’t for me. At the same time, though, I’ve realized I’m pretty abnormal in my dislike of the masculine form, so it doesn’t disprove your point so much as prove my own weirdness.

And @tiny-ivy : your point about monsters is very valid. I can say from the opposite perspective, I enjoyed pretending I was a dragon capturing a princess as a kid long before I saw an ‘actual’ SW to help make that connection really click. Women weren’t small enough for my tastes, I must have realized on some level, so I made myself larger, instead.

Kisupure

@i-am-insane Well yeah, but simply admitting that it’s bad doesn’t exonerate anyone.

I’m curious, though, does that mean you are incapable of believing yourself to be attractive?

i am insane

@kisupure
Pretty much?

Like… how do I put this, there’s two kinds of attractiveness, I guess. There’s the sexual kind, where some part of your brain says ‘I want to fuck that’, and then there’s the aesthetic kind, which is when you you admire that something is just… built right.

And when it comes to men, those two concept are always divorced to me. I can think, ‘Yeah, this person is a icon of a man’ or something, and the hormones just won’t go for me; at some fundamental level, just the masculine shape doesn’t work for me. So, yeah, if I woke up tomorrow and my trainwreck of a walking corpse suddenly looked good I’d… like, it sure. I might even want to preen about it a bit, but it’d more like someone bragging about their car rather than how hot they are.

Kisupure

@i-am-insane Interesting. That’s exactly how I used to feel about being a hot chick with crushing dysphoria.

i am insane

@kisupure
Huh. I think, on a fundamental level, I’m not really attached to my body as ‘my’ body, if that makes sense. I’ve got a bunch of medical shit happening to me since I was a kid, and it’s easy for me to think of my body as separate from me, and in general not much of it really.

Olo

The incel movement feeds hetmale body self-loathing. “Women can’t be attracted to me! The only reason they would want to be with me is if I had money or power*!”

Or if I were 100-feet tall…

@kisupure said in Sex Objects:

That’s exactly how I used to feel about being a hot chick with crushing dysphoria.

Face it, you were no Jeep Cherokee.

Kisupure

@i-am-insane That makes a lot of sense. I feel like medical dysphoria is probably a super common thing. My partner felt similar when he was going through chemo and still struggles with it.

@Olo Nobody’s perfect

tinyborrower

This is something I’ve thought about before a lot, especially as a queer woman. I’ve gone back and forth between my desire to be much bigger and smaller and the related content I consumed, I think as my own self image has changed. GTS stuff used to be my focus because the thought of being massive was empowering. People wouldn’t question my capabilities.
But now I’ve found comfort in my size - I enjoy being small. In real life, it means when I show up a lot of guys in my field who are a foot taller than me and can’t keep up, I’m more impressive. I used to be annoyed by how often people called me ‘little’, ‘petite’, etc. but it makes me feel more proud of myself. And I guess that’s something I don’t see often in this realm of writing - at least on the kinkier side. Often if SW are strong, it’s to be broken, and as many have expressed, everyone is entitled to their own kinks and views on things - no shame for those who write that way. For me, it’d be nice to see more strong SW who are allowed to stay that way - feel confident in their size and maybe even empower the GT and not be seen as an object first. Maybe some day I’ll have the time and energy to write something for myself to enjoy.

Olo

@tinyborrower I’d definitely want to read a story about someone who is made complete by getting to know a tiny woman.

tiny-ivy

@i-am-insane said in Sex Objects:

@kisupure
shrug
There’s a reason it’s called toxic masculinity, after all. Men aren’t supposed to have ‘feelings’, only pride.

Oh, dear. That phrase never should have escaped the sociology courses it was invented in.

Academic rant incoming…

Sorry if I am misinterpreting your post, but it sounds like you’re saying that masculinity is called toxic by that phrase.

Toxic masculinity is supposed to be a subset of masculinity. The phrase isn’t supposed to suggest that men are toxic. It’s about how men are a victim of the patriarchy, too, just in different ways than women.
Toxic masculinity is, indeed, the traits you’re taught by the patriarchy (including by traditional culture and traditional religions) that reduce you to nothing more than status, violence, and sex. “Boys will be boys.” “Boys don’t cry.” “Suck it up.” “Stop talking about your feelings, what are you, a girl?”
That bullshit. Locker room crap. Dehumanizing to all men.
It was described by sociologists as a thing that men can get past, for their own good, and for everybody’s good, because men more in touch with their feelings, and more confident about themselves as caregivers, would make themselves much happier, and, in theory also reduce the amount of destructive interactions they would have with each other and with women.

It’s really sad that men’s rights activists nowadays are just scumbags who hate women. There was a brief moment in the '80s, around the time this phrase was invented, when men started a men’s liberation movement to try to teach each other to get over this harmful cultural programming. But then the internet came around and ruined that.

What would be an alternative masculinity? A positive masculinity? Great question. I’m sure you have ideas there.

There is a self-help group of men who focus on this a lot, called the Mankind Project. I have a friend who swears by it. There are also some mainstream authors like Michael Ian Black who explore this.

Wow, we get deep here, in the forum about science fiction fetishes.

Olo

@tiny-ivy

I’m sure this sentiment comes from a place of cis privilege, but I have never heard of a positive trait attributed to “masculinity” that couldn’t be more honestly attributed to “adulthood.”

There should definitely be distinct physical aesthetics for male bodies; several, in fact. Appreciating male bodies for their forms and functions should not, however, determine anything meaningful about the people living in those bodies. To claim otherwise is to be a gender essentialist, to restrict a person’s potential based on their (singular) sex.

“Toxic masculinity” is really just “limited humanity.”

Kisupure

@tinyborrower I did the opposite of this with Beast of Bell Island, a jerk who was made a giant against his will and through that experience learned how to be a kinder man. This post has the wheels turning… I may have a crack at this!

@tiny-ivy Yeah it’s a shame what happened to men’s liberation. There were some cool groups. There are still men working on this for sure, and r/menslib is probably one of the biggest communities that uses feminism to heal and interrogate toxic masculinity. But there’s a post there any given week about feeling shame for being a sexual being, and trying not to self-flagellate but unsure how else not to “hurt” women with an “inherently dangerous” male sexuality. (These are scare quotes, I’m not quoting anyone specifically.)

And you’d be surprised! I’ve seen deep discussions about sexuality and gender from the sw community since I first got into it. It’s one of the things I’ve always found really cool.